Betcoin.ag, Betsoft Force Shafted Jackpot Winner into Agreement

Did you mean for title to say Bovada or Betsoft?

"Betcoin.ag, Bovada Force Shafted Jackpot Winner into Agreement"

Thanks that has been corrected.

I feel sorry for Jason. He's been placed in the position where he either gets whatever small amount they paid him off with or nothing. The casino is unregulated and unaccountable and Betsoft's games are crooked, so what is he going to do?

The casino's statement above almost makes me vomit in my mouth. I've added Betcoin.ag to our blacklist today. They will remain there until such time as Jason is paid his full million mBTC win (i.e. most likely forever).

CL-Ed wrote:

I've added Betcoin.ag to our blacklist today. They will remain there until such time as Jason is paid his full million mBTC win (i.e. most likely forever).

But isn't Betsoft the one that should have paid the progressive, not Betcoin? Seems like they should be the ones on the blacklist.

We don't know for sure who has been holding the money in this case. Betcoin claims it is Betsoft, and Betsoft is saying nothing. From what I have seen through this I have serious doubts that Betcoin even possesses enough liquid funds to pay the jackpots that it claims are available there. But let's assume that Betcoin are telling the truth. What steps have they taken to encourage Betsoft to pay this jackpot? What support did they give to the player when shown incontrovertible evidence of the win? What measures have they taken to ensure that this can't happen again? When will they be removing Betsoft's bug-ridden and/or crooked games from their casino? The answer to just about all of those questions is either nothing, none, or never. They have shown themselves over and over to be a slimy operation that places its own customers' best interests a distant third behind its own and Betsoft's.

As for Betsoft, did you even read the last paragraph of the article? We can't be more definitive than that. We've written and publicised a couple of articles about Betsoft's conduct in this and other matters already and while we haven't written them up yet on the blacklist page, they are definitely going on there in short order.

Warning: The following chat transcript is likely to make you sick.
(also, it reads from bottom to top and part of it may be out of order due to my quick copy paste job)

This was from Betcoins public chat room. Anyone is welcome as long as they aren't named TwitchySeal 🙂

True, I just know generally speaking in brick-and-mortar casinos the huge wide-area progressives are paid out by the slot manufacturer. The casino is really a middle-man in those situations, which appears to be the case here as well. The casino is somewhat powerless, with their only leverage being yanking the games (which they should have done since they're obviously a liability) but I'm willing to bet their revenue loss from ditching Betsoft games would have a far greater impact than the impact on Betsoft.

And it wouldn't surprise me if the slot was honestly intended to only be able to hit the progressive in the main game (not the bonus) and someone just completely flubbed writing the instructions. I've noticed a trend with Betsoft game rules pages in that they're often ambiguous, if not simply poorly written. Them going back and adding the disclaimer is what's really despicable, though. They should have accepted their expensive mistake and paid out.

Interested to see where this will go. Does this mean no recommendations for any casino offering Betsoft games?

You've pretty much gone over the reasons there why Betcoin can't be trusted. Its all about their own money and interests, not the welfare of their customers.

I agree that the issue is possibly caused by an oversight by Betsoft. I did find one other game of theirs that had a "no jackpot during free spins" rule quoted in the paytable. So it is possible that they really did intend for that to be the case but they didn't publicise that in the rules. Tough. An honest and/or regulated company would suck it up and pay despite their mistake.

Then consider all the other issues that we have documented with their progressive jackpots. The most generous thing you can say is that their QA processes and professionalism are severely lacking. On the other end of the scale they may be deliberately cheating players. Either way, I have absolutely no sympathy for them because as we see once again it is the players who bear the brunt of a company's incompetence or mistakes. You think they ever refund anyone who says they accidentally hit "max bet" or wagered at $1 per line instead of 1c and lost?

Reckless Bets wrote:

Interested to see where this will go. Does this mean no recommendations for any casino offering Betsoft games?

We're mulling over that at the moment, hence the delay in writing up a Betsoft blacklist entry. Its a tricky one because some casinos have hundreds of games, of which Betsoft makes up only a small number. Some may not even know this problem exists. I don't know but given their lack of communication and honesty on display from Betsoft I can't imagine they are contacting all their licensees and telling them of their problems.

Another well-known casino, SlotsMillion, today pulled Betsoft's jackpot games. But the regular ones are still playable. I don't see how you can trust them either so ideally they should be pulling all of them. These are the sorts of things we have to consider.

From all that I read above I also left with impression these guys can't be trusted more so it's not the only time when something like this happens. Neither casino nor BetSoft can be trusted I guess after all this.

It gets even better: (ungod is is a poker player that is likely among the top 3 or 4 lifetime for most hands played on Betcoin)

Quote:

ungod: jessica is betcoin trying to say that casinolistings.com a reputable online casino review site for over 10 years published a false independent review of betsoft games? thats the only way i can see justifying to continuing to carry betsoft slots in the face of that independent 3rd party review is if youre trying to say they fabricated it or something wheres the motive? is this real life?

Betcoin Jessica: There will be a very good article coming this week explaining how casino games work for online casinos. Clearly some clarification is necessary.

ungod: how casino games work for online casinos? we dont need a dummy article we need a removal of a provider who turns jackpots off and on and dials frequencies up and down at will there is 100% irrefutable evidence from an independent 3rd party review of such things...this is bullshit

Betcoin Jessica: ungod you need the knowledge my friend..you do.

ungod: you didnt see the casinolistings.com 9 month independent review of jackpot frequencies?

Betcoin Jessica: They need to publish an independent review of their jackpots from a reputable company.

ungod: a company of their choosing perhaps? and time to turn their rig off for the upcoming review? provide us with a fair provider one who hasnt been found guilty time and time again isnt that your job as a casino affiliate?

Betcoin Jessica: ungod, what we love about you is you talk like you actually are fully informed. It's amusing.

ungod: jessica is saying betsoft needs some time to turn all the rigs off on the slots and get them in order and pick their own company to review them basically jessica is saying that casinolistings.com isnt a reputable 3rd party reviewer thats the bottom line you guys need betsoft to keep the doors open

BigThangz: ungod don't waste your time fighting a winless battle like ohyeah

Betcoin Jessica: Oh and growing from a staff of 3 to 40. Some people get lucky. Oh and giving the people the best opportunity in online poker.

ungod: lets be real, its easy to grow staff from 3 to 40 when you have over 3000 coins collected towards unwinnable progressive jackpots

Betcoin Jessica: Yeah, it's easy. lol

ungod: 0 jackpot wins in 2 years? across all betsoft progressives?

Betcoin Jessica: I tell you this has been so easy and we have gotten so lucky!

ungod: why is casinolistings.com not a reputable company to present an independent 3rd party review?

ungod: bovada took em all down slots.lv took em down there are review sites that have been open for 20 years

Betcoin Jessica: lol

Betcoin Jessica: bovada and slots.lv are the same company ungod

ungod: not only did they take them down they added the bullshit jackpot values to their other games to make up for it you guys and betsoft could be the same company easily as far as we the players are concerned\

Betcoin Jessica: Also, you should really try to understand the real reason they took them down.

ungod: in fact that seems likely that the both of you are controlled by the same parent company

Betcoin Jessica: I wish!

ungod: why else would you refuse so vehemently to address the 3rd party independent study

Betcoin Jessica: We are waiting for their statement and study and you do realize that every one of our competitors and nearly every casino besides bovada has them?

Betcoin Jessica: You make statements like we are the only one. Lol

BigThangz: lol

Betcoin Jessica: lol!

Betcoin Jessica: ungod, ungod ungod, you should create a casino enter into a deal with some companies and then you will find out what goes on between provider and operator.

ungod: or are you guys going to keep pretending you have inside information on the bovada/betsoft breakoff? and it miraculously has nothing to do with the casinolistings study?

ungod: ok i called that one right?

Betcoin Jessica: There is a lot to it when you get to Betsoft's level and Bovada's level from fees to commissions to advetising to exclusives to egos

Betcoin Jessica: ungod, we learn more about you everyday and know just what type of person you are. Your heart is somewhat in the right place and we appreciate you for that.

Betcoin Jessica: Had a little time to kill, enjoyed it, good luck guys. See you in here a little later.

Betcoin Jessica: Bye, also the mitigation of the 6 hour attack has been removed so please let support know if anything slows.

ungod: do you guys legitimately believe that bovada ditched betsoft at the same time the buzz was going on about the casinolistings.com study and jasonort nonpayment of jackpot? you really believe the 2 events werent related? or do you just want really bad for us the players to believe that?

(One minute later)

Betcoin Jessica: Big, we never learn all we need to know about someone. For us it's lifelong learning, but we understand your point. It's a part of it ungod, but there is much more to it. Always look deeper ungod, you are a smart guy.

Betcoin Jessica: Go deeper than the surface, deep deep deep.

ungod: a part of it is enough jessica the provider is corrupt

Betcoin Jessica: Good luck guys, enjoyed the convo and talk soon.

BigThangz: UG did twitchy hire for part time work or what

Betcoin Jessica: Big, ungod always brings up good points, we agree with many but he never sees or examines the other side.

ungod: so betcoin stands firmly behind betsoft regardless of the 3rd party independent study that caught them with their pants down blatantly rigging slot jackpots for 9 months?

Betcoin Jessica: Anyways, I must go.

(Note: both links below are to posts on Betcoins forum. Betcoin is currently blacklisted by CasinoListings)
Update:

Betcoin has responded to this article: Betcoin Casino Responds to CasinoListings FALSE Statements, Irresponsible Reporting and Blacklist [Link to post on Betcoins Forum]
Also, Jason made a post: Setting the record straight [Link to post on Betcoins Forum]

Jason asked three clear questions in his post:

1. Explain the relationship between Betcoin & Software Vendor.
2. Why does Betcoin censor or delete forum posts?
3. Should the spin as it occurred have won the jackpot? Yes or No.

Betcoin has ignored his questions and also deleted bumps to prevent the thread from being seen on the "recent activity" feed.

Thanks for posting the link to Betcoin's article. I wasn't aware of it. Naturally I have a few comments on it.

Quote:

The agreement was between Betsoft and the player. Betcoin didn't force our great player into an Agreement and Betcoin was not even a party to the Agreement.

Quote:

3. Because we are not a party to the agreement and because we want everyone to know as much as possible, we never asked our player to sign an agreement or keep anything silent or private. We urge him in fact to speak about any particular matter he chooses to. There is no agreement with Betcoin limiting him to what he can say or not say.

Having spoken with Jason about certain elements of this case that did not include the amount of the settlement nor anything prohibited by the agreements made, I know or a fact that he has an agreement with Betcoin. When I asked how long that agreement held for he told me that it was indeterminate. So really, anything that Jason says about Betcoin publicly should be viewed with that in mind. I think that more than supports the statements made in our article above.

Quote:

The title and scope of the article is completely false and a prime example of irresponsible reporting on the Internet.

Ok then, lets analyse the article title:

Betcoin.ag, Betsoft Force Shafted Jackpot Winner into Agreement

1. We know Jason has an agreement with Betsoft to receive a settlement that is less than the amount he won.
2. We know Jason has an agreement with Betcoin to not complain about them in public, and may in fact be asked to promote them in future.
3. He won a jackpot.
4. He has most certainly been shafted.

I guess you could quibble and say that we should have used the word "agreements" instead of "agreement" but "completely false"? No, I don't think so.

Quote:

The author of the article did not take the time to ask Betcoin or the player any questions about the content of his statements

As mentioned above this is in fact wrong. We have spoken to Jason and there is a lot more that I could say about this. Out of respect for his wishes for privacy and the terms of the agreement that he made, there was a lot that he could not tell me, and I can't and won't say more. You'll just have to trust me when I say that we have in fact spoken and that any statements regarding his satisfaction should be viewed with what I wrote above in mind.

I don't see why we need to speak to Betcoin about anything. Their actions speak for themselves.

Quote:

Because the author of the article has chosen to completely ignore the true facts of the case, he has then concluded that Betcoin Casino is rogue and should be blacklisted. When your conclusions are based on blatant falsehoods and irresponsible reporting your entire classification is false.

Here are the "true facts". It is important not to lose sight of exactly what has happened.

1. Jason won a jackpot according to the rules of The Glam Life game when he played it.
2. The game did not pay the jackpot as advertised.
3. He complained and was told by Betcoin that he wasn't eligible to win it because he was not playing at the correct coin size.
4. He pointed out the stupidity of this statement as there are different jackpots per coin size, and they changed their story to the current one - free spins wins don't count.
5. Betsoft later changed their paytable to specify this exception.
6. Other casinos such as the Bovada group, SlotsMillion, and other Bitcoin focused casinos have either dropped Betsoft's games altogether, or their progressive jackpot games.
7. Jason reached agreements with both Betsoft and Betcoin and was paid an amount that, given the lack of statements from either the casino or Betsoft claiming otherwise, we can safely assume was less than the jackpot.
8. Betcoin continues to offer Betsoft progressive games that have ripped off one of their own customers, and that our jackpot tracker have shown to not pay out fairly.

Let me be very clear: none of these things are disputed or in doubt. Betcoin is attempting to portray itself as some kind of poor victim caught in the middle but the "true facts of the case", to use their words, don't support this at all.

And let me reiterate: Betcoin will not be removed from our blacklist until Jason is paid the full amount of the jackpot that he won. We simply do not view their casino as one that can be trusted to have the best interests of their own customers in mind when the next inevitable Betsoft "malfunction" occurs. The fact that they are still offering these games to their customers says everything you need to know about them.

Let that sink in for a moment. That right there is a prime reason why we have blacklisted Betcoin, and it seems to be something that the author of that article cannot seem to comprehend. We have shown that jackpot games offered by Betsoft may be either bugged to the point that you can't win them, or crooked. Betcoin have had one of their own customers burned by one of their games. Yet they are still happy for all their customers to keep playing them.

They can moan and complain and write articles littered with juvenile hyperbole, straw men and half truths, and whinge about the injustice all they want. None of that changes the "true facts of the case".

Quote:

In their praise of bovada and slots.lv they fail to even mention that 1) these are in fact the same company, 2) there are other internal issues as to why Betsoft games were removed, and 3) no other online casino has removed Betsoft games.

What does point 1 have to do with anything? We know they are the same company, if you read any of the linked reviews on our site you can see that they are the same company under the related casinos section. That is one of the weakest straw man arguments I have ever seen. Quick - look over there at the monkey!

Betcoin claims that there were other reasons that Bovada removed the Betsoft games. That is an extraordinary claim because it implies that Betcoin knows the inner workings of Bovada's business. If this is true, how they came to supposedly possess such knowledge is a serious question. Questions like: Does Betcoin engage in corporate espionage? Or perhaps someone at Betsoft told them? Are Betcoin related to Betsoft somehow? I could go on, but I am sure that you can see the serious lack of ethics and professionalism these sorts of questions raise.

Ultimately, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. With the total absence of any evidence supporting that statement I see nothing there but attempted deflection and speculation. Until such evidence is provided, this claim should be dismissed as the baseless load of rubbish that it is.

As for the claim that "no other online casino has removed Betsoft games", well that is again wrong. I know for a fact that SlotsMillion have recently removed Betsoft's progressives. I remember reading that a few other Bitcoin focused casinos had too. Irrespective of what anyone else has done, the "everyone else is doing it" excuse doesn't wash for a 5 year old caught stealing a lolly, nor does it wash for a casino offering games that are ripping off their customers. Again, it tells you a lot about Betcoin and its attitude towards its own customers.

Quote:

We have received a substantial amount of new traffic and converting players from CasinoListings.com and continue to see that people are smart and don't believe the falsities they read online.

Ah the lady doth protest too much, methinks. Ultimately this is the most heartening thing I read in the whole article and it made me smile. I don't know, but I suspect that maybe, just maybe, the complete opposite is the real truth. 😂

An interesting thing I spotted today on the Betcoin site. Look this up:

betcoin.ag/book-ra-deluxe-slot-30-new-slots-added-betcoincasinocom-lineup

Its an article dated October 9, 2014 that is titled "Book of Ra Deluxe Slot & 30 New Slots Added to BetcoinCasino Lineup". It details the addition of 31 well known slots from Novomatic to their casino.

I will quote it here in case it disappears.

Quote:

BetcoinCasino.com is excited to announced the inclusion of 31 new slots into the slot lineup at BetcoinCasino.com taking our total number of games available to over 200. The new games are headlined by one of the worlds most popular slots Book of Ra Deluxe.

The new games also include:

Sizzling Hot deluxe, Dolphin's Pearl Deluxe, Lucky Lady's Charm Deluxe, Lord of the Ocean Deluxe, Just Jewels Deluxe, Book of Ra, Columbus Deluxe, Dolphin Treasure, Queen of the Nile, Beetle Mania Deluxe, Dolphin's Pearl, 50 Dragons, Queen of the Nile II, Xtra Hot, 50 Lions, Power Stars, Geisha, Pelican Pete, Sun and Moon, Tiki Torch, Double Happiness, Lucky Count, Wild Panda, Miss Kitty

The new games are not a part of the bonus program for now, and are available for play by doing a transfer from your account. Simply, click on a game and then click Money Transfer. Transfer the specified funds and then you can play.

We are working to bring the most complete casino experience to you and appreciate any questions, suggestions and concerns that you may have.

But hang on, if you look around their casino you won't find these slots there now. Why not? Because as is well known, Novomatic currently do not license their slots to unlicensed and unregulated casinos for Bitcoin play - let alone back in late 2014. If these slots were on their site, as claimed in the article, then they were pirated games running on a fake server that was under the control of the crooks who ripped them off.

Anyone who played these games at the time they were on the Betcoin site was cheated and should be contacting the casino and demanding a refund for any losses incurred.