pyBlackjackAA
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28 September 2015 - 9:21am

Questioning Betsoft Jackpots

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Hello guys!

I have been a long time lurker on this forum, and I just right now signed up to create this post.

This is a long post, so please take your time to read it all.
In essence, I believe we are being cheated by a software provider (not by a site in specific).

I've been gambling for a few years and I change site from time to time.
Recently Betsoft have been launching their games on different sites.
Honestly, cool games, nice graphics, I like them.

Then once I got stuck on one of their games, Greedy Goblins.
What you need to know is that Betsoft got different jackpots depending on the level you bet.

So, I tried to win on the lowest, and I went on for A LOT of spins. Seemed like you couldn't win.
I know that you think "Wow, such guy, thinks he can win a jackpot in a few hundred/thousand spins".

So I kept checking, no one is ever winning the JP.
For weeks, I've been checking the Jackpot levels on all bet levels and it makes no sense.

I was taking notes of different Jackpots at Bovada.
Then, June 11, 2015, Casinolisting made a post: http://www.casinolistings.com/news/2015/06/bovada-player-strikes-112425-...

This has nothing to do with Casinolistings really. A lot of different sites are posting the same news, so I guess it is coming straight from Bovada.
It says that someone hit the jackpot on Green goblins, bet 0.10 of a 112k win.

This is wrong, because: The Jackpot wasn't at 112k at that time (according to my stats), also, it kept growing after that date, and no one hit it.

So I made a more througly investigation.

Betsoft have some levels "locked". Yes that is right. There are some specific bet levels that are locked and you can't win, but a higher or lower bet level you can.
So it could be like this:
0.02 = Unlocked
0.05 = Locked
0.10 = Unlocked

You can make that conclusion of the fact of the levels of each Jackpot:
0.02 = 150
0.05 = 37372
0.10 = 1325

And that no one is winning 0.05 for months, but 0.02 and 0.10 is being taken all the time.

I can understand that all these numbers I pointed out earlier sound like BS, so if you don't buy that, then check this:

Betsoft has a game called "At the copa".
It has 3 different JP levels, like minor, medium and mega (they call it Suave, mediano, caliente).

As an example:
Mini = 80
Medium = 160
Mega = 310-320

Now, whatever or whichever site you check AND whatever bet limit you check, they will ALWAYS follow that rule:

Mini: 1
Medium: 2
Mega: 3

If it was possible to win these jackpots, then at least 1, 2 or 3 would not keep in the same jackpot level rhythm.

Lets say it was 80;160;310.
And someone just won 160.
Then it would be 80;120;310.

But it is never like that, it is always keeping the same format.

So my conclusion is, no one has ever won At The Copa.

I believe that this is not completely fair, possibly misconfiguration by Betsoft.

2 CL-Ed, lpangborn76

auCL-Ed
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5 July 2016 - 11:12pm
#61

That is a very interesting email. One of our guys here got it too so they must have sent it out to all of their customers.

Usually when a game is discontinued the jackpot amounts are transferred to other games (by an honest casino at least). So I'd expect Bovada to do the same. Though in this case who knows what will happen if Betsoft were the ones holding the money.

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ustwitchyseal
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6 July 2016 - 12:44am
#62

Let's assume that all the "big" jackpots were switched off, but still being accounted for.

From a players perspective it seems like they are the only victims. They were deceived about the chance to win, which likely resulted in them playing more. We could also say they had the 1-2% RTP stolen from them.

I think it's likely the casino and any affiliates were also robbed by the software provider if the 1-2% of each bet was counted as part of the "RTP", despite the fact the player lost it. So Betsoft got to pocket the entire 1-2% without paying the usual 20-50% "affiliate tax"

The progressive jackpots were serving as nothing more than a way for Betsoft to grab money directly from the player and put directly in their pocket without having to pay even one single middleman.

usReckless Bets
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8 July 2016 - 10:24pm
#63

Just got this email from Slots.lv saying how they're boosting progressives on existing games. Anyone have the equivalent Bovada version (assuming they're doing the same) to see how the numbers compare?

Quote:

As promised, we have news for you regarding our recent changes to our casino game lineup and the resulting impact to our progressive jackpot offering. We know how popular some of these progressive jackpot games are for our players and so to help make up for those games, over the coming weeks we’ll be adding extra amounts to a number of our own jackpot games.

Today, the three games below will have these amounts added to their current progressive jackpots:

For desktop players:
Food Fight: $133,650
Super Diamond Mine: $85,050

For mobile and download:
Jackpot Piñatas: $130,000
On Monday July 11, we will begin to distribute another $525,000 across select games by increasing the starting jackpot amounts from $1000 to $5000 per jackpot, and matching jackpot contributions by an additional 1% per wager. This will continue until the $525,000 figure has been met.

The games offering these elevated jackpots are:
Bulletproof Babes
Sevens and Stripes
Caesar’s Empire
Aztec’s Treasure
Cleopatra’s Gold
Dirty Martini
We thank you for your continued support, please stay tuned for exciting new game releases in the coming months as we continue our search to provide you with games of the highest possible quality and entertainment.

3 CL-Ed, twitchyseal, lpangborn76

usReckless Bets
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17 August 2016 - 11:24am
#64

So a month later - has anyone heard anything else about this saga? Bovada and Slots.lv kinda quietly swept this under the rug, meanwhile Betsoft games are still on plenty of other high-profile sites.

lpangborn76

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17 August 2016 - 12:47pm
#65
Reckless Bets wrote:

So a month later - has anyone heard anything else about this saga? Bovada and Slots.lv kinda quietly swept this under the rug, meanwhile Betsoft games are still on plenty of other high-profile sites.

I haven't heard anything as well but I avoid Betsoft games for now. Never was a big fan for them but after all of the scandals about payouts I just don't trust them.

lpangborn76

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17 August 2016 - 1:21pm
#66

Well, I haven't heard any news about Betsoft (the game provider in general) however a situation relating to them and another site (betcoin.ag) resulted in a user being cheated out of a jackpot and given a settlement. Two days ago, he replied, though it was solely about Betcoin not answering any questions and ignoring him.

I'm unsure about the link between Betcoin and Betsoft, because if Betsoft had locked the jackpot on the game that jasonort played, then they wouldn't have any problems. However, the player won the jackpot (on max bet) but Betcoin seemed unwilling to pay the jackpot. I'm unsure whether the software provider or the casino owner pays the jackpot - if it's the software provider, then why would Betcoin be unwilling to pay? Perhaps they're linked more intimately?

lpangborn76

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17 August 2016 - 11:33pm
#67
Reckless Bets wrote:

So a month later - has anyone heard anything else about this saga? Bovada and Slots.lv kinda quietly swept this under the rug, meanwhile Betsoft games are still on plenty of other high-profile sites.

I don't know if I would characterise what Bovada did as sweeping it under the rug. At least they did something, removing the games and transferring the jackpot funds to other games. It is a whole lot more than anyone else has done.

We have been contacting many casinos still running Betsoft games over the past few weeks pointing out this issue and asking them what they plan to do about it. We have received responses from several and this is a summary of where we stand.

Emu Casino: will not offer Betsoft progressives due to this issue and other operator-specific problems they mentioned. Stated that according to their stats the non-progressive games are paying out according to the theoretical RTP numbers so they will not be removing them.

SlotsMillion: have removed all Betsoft progressive jackpot games. Non progressives remain.

Various SoftSwiss Casinos:
TTR Casino: will not offer any Betsoft games due to this issue.
Limoplay, BetChan: have decided to keep offering all Betsoft games, including progressives.

A SoftSwiss rep made a statement similar to the Emu Casino one that Betsoft's non-progressives were paying out within expected RTP range.

The following all replied and said they were referring the issue to management and will get back to us:

Guts / Betspin / Rizk
CasinoLuck / NextCasino
VideoSlots Casino

We are waiting for responses from others. The response has not exactly been overwhelming but we are trying to make sure that casinos are aware of this issue and give them the opportunity to do the right thing. If they don't, we'll let you know and you can draw your own conclusions.

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17 August 2016 - 11:46pm
#68
actmyname wrote:

I'm unsure about the link between Betcoin and Betsoft, because if Betsoft had locked the jackpot on the game that jasonort played, then they wouldn't have any problems. However, the player won the jackpot (on max bet) but Betcoin seemed unwilling to pay the jackpot. I'm unsure whether the software provider or the casino owner pays the jackpot - if it's the software provider, then why would Betcoin be unwilling to pay? Perhaps they're linked more intimately?

I have my suspicions on that front but unfortunately due to the anonymous way Betcoin is set up, we can only speculate. As for who holds the money, we believe it is Betsoft. To me that is irrelevant. An honest casino would have paid up then commenced legal action against Betsoft to recover the money. Instead Betcoin elected to play the victim and pretend they are some innocent third party caught in the middle. And then they have no problem continuing to offer Betsoft's games to their customers. This is why they will be forever known as damaged goods.

blck wrote:

I haven't heard anything as well but I avoid Betsoft games for now. Never was a big fan for them but after all of the scandals about payouts I just don't trust them.

Exactly.

While I believe the multiple casino reps that have told me that the Betsoft non-progressive games are paying out properly, I simply can't trust the company and their processes. How long until the next "bug" makes it into a non-progressive game that is not audited or tested by anyone apart from Betsoft?

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pyBlackjackAA
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18 August 2016 - 3:02pm
#69
CL-Ed wrote:

While I believe the multiple casino reps that have told me that the Betsoft non-progressive games are paying out properly, I simply can't trust the company and their processes. How long until the next "bug" makes it into a non-progressive game that is not audited or tested by anyone apart from Betsoft?

I think that it's paying out properly if you don't count in the jackpot.
That's why they think everything is fine. They are not thinking too far.

ustwitchyseal
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19 August 2016 - 3:34pm
#70

Lets not forget about the Keno software betsoft provided Absolute Poker.

Take 5 minutes to watch this entire video if you haven't already.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhalYzlNCh8

They clearly have no intention of offering fair games, just pretty ones.

I'd love to see some independent testing on their video poker today.

phCasinodepositors
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23 September 2016 - 8:51am
#71

Lately I have read somewhere on the internet about a faulty slot machine by betsoft. I think this is one of the issue regarding betsoft jackpot. Some casinos already pullout betsoft games so other will not get affectec with the issue.

pyBlackjackAA
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23 September 2016 - 9:09am
#72
Casinodepositors wrote:

Lately I have read somewhere on the internet about a faulty slot machine by betsoft. I think this is one of the issue regarding betsoft jackpot. Some casinos already pullout betsoft games so other will not get affectec with the issue.

Uhm, I can't see the correlation between that.
Faulty Betsoft slots can't affect the game play of other slots.

auIndependentGambler
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13 October 2016 - 8:32am
#73

This issue brought me to this forum.
I am shocked the way betsoft has handled this situation and will avoid playing any of their games in the future.

CL-Ed

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13 October 2016 - 10:38pm
#74

Yep, is the safest thing to do.

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usReckless Bets
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26 October 2016 - 11:03pm
#75

Something else interesting I've noticed of late. BitStarz (which never got rid of their Betsoft games) seems to have quietly removed their "Glam Life" and "Mega Glam Life" slots. Both had the huge progressive Betsoft jackpots. Wonder if it's linked?

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26 October 2016 - 11:17pm
#76

I doubt it. If they weren't going to do anything back when all this was in the news, then they aren't going to bother now. A more pertinent question would be what happened to the jackpot money? If progressive jackpot games are removed then any contributions made by players should be redistributed to other games.

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31 October 2016 - 12:32am
#77

Found some more Betsoft stuff, not sure if it you guys have seen it or not but I haven't:

http://ns1.betsoft.com/game-fairness.html

They have audits from 2006, 2009 and 2012. Don't understand most enough to draw any conclusions on my own.

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31 October 2016 - 1:44am
#78

I only looked at the 2012 one and it's just as worthless as their current certification. It states that their RNG met Alderney requirements at the time. Betsoft have since had their Alderney license revoked.

It has the following disclaimers:

Quote:

- TST's compliance evaluation of the Betsoft RNG was related only to the technical scope of work elements discussed herein. This specifically excludes any other features or functions provided by the submission not related to these elements.

- All testing results are base on information and materials submitted by Betsoft to TST throughout the duration of the project. There are inherent limitations to performing compliance testing within a laboratory environment, and within a finite time period. As a result of these limitations, all possible configurations, scenarios and events which could potentially occur in the live environment was not feasible.

These mean that they are certifying the RNG in isolation. This is worthless because it is the game code that decides what to do with any numbers provided by a RNG, so it is possible to program an unfair game (intentionally or accidentally) while still using a genuine RNG. Clearly that is what happened with their jackpot games that were not winnable for certain periods.

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ustwitchyseal
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31 October 2016 - 3:04am
#79

The 2009 and 2006 documents actually have stats on individual games degrees of freedom that might interest you. (Keno included in 2009, 2 years before the Keno issue on Absolute Poker)

Also found some promo material that looks so evil I almost think it has to be a joke:

http://ns1.betsoft.com/betcafe.html

bc_2-lrg.jpg
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31 October 2016 - 4:18am
#80

Ha! I love how they voluntarily call it a pyramid scheme. I know that English is probably not their first language but that is just crazy.

That is interesting information (but not necessarily helpful) in the older reports listing the degrees of freedom for individual games. What that term means is the (n - 1) different options or paths the RNG can go down when playing a game. For example if you're rolling a dice you have 6 - 1 = 5 DoF. It lists blackjack with 311 DoF which corresponds to 6 decks of 52 cards. Likewise single deck blackjack is listed with 51 DoF. For games with multiple values in this column it implies that you can play with different options (eg single or multi-hand video poker, variable reels or lines in slot machines).

To cut a long story short, I think they are saying that they tested the RNG for each separate DoF possibility that the listed games use, but I still don't think that they actually tested the end-to-end output from the games themselves.

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31 October 2016 - 5:58am
#81

This was such good info for me! Just to know that someone is checking on these casinos besides the gaming departments or whatever they're called. I have won jackpots for Santastic which is a game at Planet 7, Raging Bull, Dreams, Casino Moons, Cool Cat, Slots of Vegas etc.... It has only one jackpot that goes up to 1200.00 at times, but when I won it the amount was approx 180.00 , 150.00 and the latest one at 252.00. I did notice after each win (which they state on each game paytable ) that the bonus starts at 140.00 to 150.00 right after I would win and each win was the same game but at different casinos. Thank you again for all this great info both of you researched. I think that its great when I see someone else who thinks like me and spends that much time and effort into gathering specs for reasons as stated here on this thread. I am new at this online gambling but I do know its so important to know who pays and who doesn't pay! I have yet to experience that because each time i have my winnings over 2,000.00 which has been about 6 different times now, I don't ask for withdrawl and the next day I tell myself I don't want to deposit again so I use the casinos money and in almost each case, the funds were gone within a few hours. I am kind of embarassed to admit this but if it helps anyone..... " I have always been very disciplined with spending my money and I am not going broke but i want to keep playing with confidence these casinos aren't using a time frame method for stronger and higher winnings, like I know they do at the real casinos close to my home.

CL-Ed

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3 November 2016 - 2:01am
#82

Have you guys seen the response betcoin posted on their website?

betcoin.ag/betcoin-casino-responds-casinolistings-false-statements-irresponsible-reporting-and-blacklist

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3 November 2016 - 2:19am
#83

and post by the jackpot winner...
betcoin.ag/setting-record-straight
interesting read

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3 November 2016 - 6:38am
#84

Yes that was all picked over a long time ago, right here. Their response to our report was laughable and typical of an organisation that would rather try to distract and deny instead of addressing their own deficiencies.

The player never got any answers to his questions. He was just ignored after the crooks running the casino used to him to run a distraction campaign while he waited for a small payment that was nowhere near the amount he should have won.

All in all its a very sad story.

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pyBlackjackAA
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3 November 2016 - 6:53am
#85

I think Betcoin.ag should fix their rigged slots before going out with a statement saying "everything is ok" 😀

Good Girl vs Bad Girl:
0.02 Good: 4370
0.02 Bad: 4380

For you who haven't followed this issue from the beginning, let me sum it up for you:
The Betsoft jackpots at Betcoin.Ag are locked/unwinnable.

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3 November 2016 - 7:54am
#86

Geez... nice find. My willingness to believe that this may have all been due to Betsoft's incompetence rather than a deliberate act has reached an all time low.

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usMistee234
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4 November 2016 - 4:09am
#87

I read about him not getting paid but just found their response to you cl-ed. I also read the forum where you picked it over. Did they respond anymore about caslinglistings or the last posting you made regarding the slots from 2014? I am shocked that jasonort nor any of the other betcoin players arent complaining about not getting a response on his setting the record straight forum. It is pretty sad.

If I am understanding the casinos correctly.. typically with US players we are playing rtg casinos. So if i win at a rtg casino the actual casino is not paying me? it is rtg that is doing the payouts?

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4 November 2016 - 6:36am
#88

I think Jason has more or less given up as the reality is that there isn't anything else he can do. He doesn't have to continue with the charade that he is really happy and that he loves Betcoin and they have been so nice to him. He has publicly stated that he no longer plays at their casino and that he is royally unhappy with how he was treated.

From what I have seen Betcoin's typical response is to just ignore a problem and hope it goes away. I can see why they would do that though. Every time they come out and say something they just draw more attention to what they have done and dig an even deeper hole for themselves.

The answer to who pays you is it depends as it varies by casino and platform supplier. RTG most definitely do not pay players directly, unless it is one of their big networked progressive jackpots that are shared amongst their casinos. They may assist in payment processing and whatnot but ultimately it is up to each individual casino to release funds to players. This is why we see some casinos pay people immediately while others take months, if at all. RTG is one of the worst for being "hands off". They will sell a license to just about anyone and take no care or responsibility for how their licensees run their casinos, to the point that some are outright criminals.

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