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28 September 2015 - 9:21am

Questioning Betsoft Jackpots

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Hello guys!

I have been a long time lurker on this forum, and I just right now signed up to create this post.

This is a long post, so please take your time to read it all.
In essence, I believe we are being cheated by a software provider (not by a site in specific).

I've been gambling for a few years and I change site from time to time.
Recently Betsoft have been launching their games on different sites.
Honestly, cool games, nice graphics, I like them.

Then once I got stuck on one of their games, Greedy Goblins.
What you need to know is that Betsoft got different jackpots depending on the level you bet.

So, I tried to win on the lowest, and I went on for A LOT of spins. Seemed like you couldn't win.
I know that you think "Wow, such guy, thinks he can win a jackpot in a few hundred/thousand spins".

So I kept checking, no one is ever winning the JP.
For weeks, I've been checking the Jackpot levels on all bet levels and it makes no sense.

I was taking notes of different Jackpots at Bovada.
Then, June 11, 2015, Casinolisting made a post: http://www.casinolistings.com/news/2015/06/bovada-player-strikes-112425-...

This has nothing to do with Casinolistings really. A lot of different sites are posting the same news, so I guess it is coming straight from Bovada.
It says that someone hit the jackpot on Green goblins, bet 0.10 of a 112k win.

This is wrong, because: The Jackpot wasn't at 112k at that time (according to my stats), also, it kept growing after that date, and no one hit it.

So I made a more througly investigation.

Betsoft have some levels "locked". Yes that is right. There are some specific bet levels that are locked and you can't win, but a higher or lower bet level you can.
So it could be like this:
0.02 = Unlocked
0.05 = Locked
0.10 = Unlocked

You can make that conclusion of the fact of the levels of each Jackpot:
0.02 = 150
0.05 = 37372
0.10 = 1325

And that no one is winning 0.05 for months, but 0.02 and 0.10 is being taken all the time.

I can understand that all these numbers I pointed out earlier sound like BS, so if you don't buy that, then check this:

Betsoft has a game called "At the copa".
It has 3 different JP levels, like minor, medium and mega (they call it Suave, mediano, caliente).

As an example:
Mini = 80
Medium = 160
Mega = 310-320

Now, whatever or whichever site you check AND whatever bet limit you check, they will ALWAYS follow that rule:

Mini: 1
Medium: 2
Mega: 3

If it was possible to win these jackpots, then at least 1, 2 or 3 would not keep in the same jackpot level rhythm.

Lets say it was 80;160;310.
And someone just won 160.
Then it would be 80;120;310.

But it is never like that, it is always keeping the same format.

So my conclusion is, no one has ever won At The Copa.

I believe that this is not completely fair, possibly misconfiguration by Betsoft.

2 CL-Ed, lpangborn76

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27 February 2016 - 10:58pm
#31

The 50c jackpots. There appears to be very little play at this coin size compared to the others, but from what you can see they have all been won at some stage. Like the others, nothing won since February 13.

betsoft-good-girl-50c-bovada.png
betsoft-good-girl-50c-slotslv.png
betsoft-bad-girl-50c-bovada.png
betsoft-bad-girl-50c-slotslv.png

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27 February 2016 - 11:14pm
#32

And lastly the $1 jackpots. As you might imagine, it seems that very few people can afford to play at this coin size. The Bad Girl jackpot at Bovada has once again not been won at all during this time. The Good and Bad Girl jackpots at Slots.lv look oddly similar, almost as if they are one and the same (the only difference around the time of the first win could be a data read or timing error that caused us to pick up a bad number).

betsoft-good-girl-1d-bovada.png
betsoft-good-girl-1d-slotslv.png
betsoft-bad-girl-1d-bovada.png
betsoft-bad-girl-1d-slotslv.png

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noCaliber26
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28 February 2016 - 3:57pm
#33

Hi, i have also been looking around on this page alot without signing up. But this post made me! This means that there must be something really shady going on with eighter Bovada or Betsoft, right?

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28 February 2016 - 9:36pm
#34

Obviously we can't know for sure but I'm leaning towards Betsoft on this one. They are either:

1. Releasing games with bugs that affect the chance of a jackpot being won
2. Updating the games and deliberately changing the chance of a jackpot win
3. Designing the games such that the operator can change the chance of a jackpot being won

Bovada would be complicit if 3 was the case.

However the most telling thing for me is the exact same game at the exact same coin size being won very regularly at Slots.lv while never being won at all at Bovada. They own both those sites, so surely they must know something is wrong?

jshort

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noCaliber26
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28 February 2016 - 10:26pm
#35

Well, I`m not the right man to calculate the odds for this to happen, but i`m sure there is someone out there that could do it.

But it sure do look pretty odd to me that the jackpot all of a sudden can climb to 180K in one casino and never higher than 800 at another one.

Do you guys have the expertise to calculate the probabilities for this to happen?

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28 February 2016 - 11:00pm
#36

It would help to know the amount each bet contributes to the jackpot. If we know that, then we can work out the total number of spins on the game in say 2 months by looking at the amount the jackpot increased and dividing by the contribution per bet. If we can then see that at one casino it was won 16 times we can get a good approximation of how many spins it is won on average. Once you know that then you can look at the jackpot that was never won and work out how "unlucky" you would have to be. However this game is complicated because people can bet in "good" mode for 15 coins or "bad" mode for 15 coins or both for 30 coins.

I'm working on getting a rough answer to that at the moment.

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28 February 2016 - 11:48pm
#37

I haven't been able to find the bet contribution per wager to the jackpot. But lets look at one example in purely monetary terms.

The Bad Girl 5c Jackpot, since October 2, 2015:

- has risen from $119,745 to $182,017, a total contribution of $62,272, while never being won at Bovada
- has been won 20 times at Slot.lv for an average win of $804, with a re-seed value of $375
- had total contributions at Slots.lv approximately equal to 20 x (804 - 375) = $8,580

So if it is won 20 times per $8580 of contributions at Slots.lv, I would expect it to have been won roughly 145 times during the same time at Bovada, instead of zero.

Clearly the game is not the same at these two casinos. Or rather it wasn't - as it has not been won at either place since February 13, suggesting that it is now the same at both sites.

I don't think anybody should be playing these games at the moment as something is clearly not right with them.

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29 February 2016 - 12:13am
#38

Would be very interesting to know this Smile What amount, or how many % of the bet is likely to go to a jackpot like that?

Anyway, I dont think it is so complicated. Since each jackpot takes 15 coins eighter alone, or 15 coins each it should not matter for the calculation if we bet on 1 or 2 jackpots. The answere will be that we bet 15 coins on the respective jackpot when we choose to play for it.

If you bet on it, you contribute to it, if you dont bet on it, you dont contribute to it and for that reason you can`t win it.

So the only problem should be to find out how many % of the bet on the respective jackpot is contributing to it. That way we could calculate how many spins on that EXACT jackpot it takes to get it up to the average amount.

Or am I terrible mistaken in my way of thinking here?

CL-Ed

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29 February 2016 - 12:53am
#39

What amount is the jackpot reset at in each of the casinos? Is it the same amount?

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29 February 2016 - 1:02am
#40

Actually you are right, as they are completely separate jackpots and the contributions should only be made to the one that they are wagering on (or both).

Progressive slots vary in the amount they contribute to the jackpot but typically it is something like 1% of each wager.

And yes, they reset to the same amount at both casinos (at least on the ones that we can see have been won).

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29 February 2016 - 1:24am
#41

Ok, I have now been playing the free mode on Betsofts homepage and it seams that if you play with coinsize 0,10 and max bet at 150 coins, then each of the jackpots rise 0,15 for each spin.

Since you then bet 7,50 on each jackpot it means that 2% of the bet contributes to it.

But if the jackpot is reset at the same amnount at Bovada and Slots.lv, how on earth did it get up from tiny 375 to 119K in the first place, nevertheless 180K now....

to get it up to 180K, you need to spin 1,2 million times without hitting it. But at slots.lv you need to spinn 2860 times to get it from 375 to the average of 804.... (or are my calculations done 2:30 at night totally wrong?)

CL-Ed

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29 February 2016 - 2:07am
#42

That is weird. You are right it goes up by 15c, but only if you bet both jackpots at the same time. If I pick either good mode or bad mode, I make it either a 7c or 8c increase when betting at the 10c coin size ($7.50 total). That makes it 1% at 7.5c on average.

Reading the paytable, that right there looks like a bug to me as it is contributing double what it should when both modes are activated. I would have thought that if you bet on both modes then each jackpot should go up 7.5c for a 15c total increase, not 15c each for a 30c total increase. Everyone who plays this should play in "both" mode because the game is contributing double what it should be to the jackpots.

However the paytable is badly worded too - i.e.

Quote:

You can also choose to play BOTH modes at once, for 2x more coins per payline. In both mode, game will pay both ways.

2x more (than what?) suggests that it costs 2x the normal bet plus the original bet which would make it 3x the normal bet to play both ways. But it doesn't - it only costs 2x the original bet (i.e. 150 coins instead of 75).

I'm thinking that we'll have to double check that in real money mode to be sure.

We don't know how the jackpot got that high at Bovada as we only started tracking it in October 2015. My first thought was that sometimes when a casino retires some old jackpot games they move the jackpot money over to a new game so that the player contributions are not lost. So that is a possibility. Or maybe it just built up from zero.

I don't think that is such an important question. What is more relevant is why it keeps going up during the time we have tracked it without being won, while the same game at the same coin size is won regularly at their other site that has less people playing it? And why have people stopped winning the jackpots on February 13?

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29 February 2016 - 2:37am
#43

Yeah, maby it is time to ask Bovada and Betsoft the question. It must be something wrong here. Would also be interesting to know the exact odds for this to randomly happen in one casino. And what is the odds for it to happen in two casinos owned by the same company at once....

But I do think it is a little bit important to know if the jackpot actually got up from 375 the regular way, or if there are other factors involved. from 119K to 180K is unlikely to happen all the time the game behave totally different in other casinos. But from 375 to 180K is insane. The odds for those two situations to happen will have a pretty huge difference i think.

Well, im off to bed, but will for sure think more about it tomorrow.

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29 February 2016 - 2:03pm
#44

It's an interesting thing to see the discrepancy between the two sites owned by the same people and using the same software. I doubt we'll ever get any real answers, but it is certainly a topic that should be brought up to the sites and developer.

coolsongss

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29 February 2016 - 11:49pm
#45

I emailed Bovada again and this time got a response that someone there is looking into it. I asked if they could pass it on to Betsoft as well, so we shall see.

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6 March 2016 - 11:41pm
#46

I have not heard back from Bodog yet. I will post a follow-up email today in the hope that someone will see it first thing Monday morning.

However it is clear that some of the jackpots have "reverted" back to their previous pattern of winnings over the past few days.

good-girl-2c-bovada-winnable.png

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7 March 2016 - 12:17am
#47
CL-Ed wrote:

I have not heard back from Bodog yet. I will post a follow-up email today in the hope that someone will see it first thing Monday morning.

However it is clear that some of the jackpots have "reverted" back to their previous pattern of winnings over the past few days.

Yep! Looks like they reverted it back, would be nice to have an explanation from them of what exactly happened there. I checked Slots and it reverted back as well.
But not to forget though, some BAD ones seems to still be locked too.

And furthermore, "At The Copa" is locked on ALL levels as well, I suppose that should be up for discussion later.

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16 June 2016 - 1:32am
#48

I was asked to comment about this on the CasinoMeister forum and did so here.

I then went back and looked at the numbers and compiled the table that you see below. Obviously there is something seriously wrong with the Bad Girl jackpots at Bovada. Where the jackpots are being won on Bad Girl 2c and the Good Girl jackpots, the numbers are roughly equivalent between both casinos. But what I did notice was the much higher "biggest win" amounts at Bovada. This corresponds to the spikes in the graphs that we talked about earlier. What I find most interesting about those spikes is that, despite claims of "random luck" by the casino (Betsoft never bothered to reply), they all line up more or less identically at each coin size, which clearly indicates that they were "just randomly" more difficult to win all at the same time. What an amazing coincidence.

betsoft-jackpots-data-comparison.png
good-girl-2c-bovada-spike.png
good-girl-5c-bovada-spike.png
good-girl-10c-bovada-spike.png

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16 June 2016 - 2:50am
#49

This thread makes my head hurt. lol But I do plan to come back and read more carefully when (and IF I ever) I get some time.

Very interesting topic.

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16 June 2016 - 5:17am
#50

Well to sum it up:

Betsoft progressive games appear to have jackpots that don't maintain a consistent chance of winning. They are either buggy, or there is some kind of deliberately programmed setting that can make the jackpot harder or easier to win. As a result several of the Bad Girl jackpots at Bovada have never been won and are way beyond the level that you would ever expect them to reach (we can tell that by looking at the numbers from the same game at Slots.lv).

I don't trust the fairness of any of Betsoft's progressive jackpot games at all.

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18 June 2016 - 1:29am
#51

I've neer been a big fan for Betsoft, I find them super expensive and I very rarely play their games with my cash only, but for some reason winning jackpot on a Betsoft slot has always seemed like something impossible.

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22 June 2016 - 6:04am
#52

Today I am sad to say that I came across this recent complaint about a Betsoft jackpot on the Bitcoin Talk forums. The player in question hit 5 yachts on a single line on Betsoft's The Glam Life slot and swears he was betting the maximum 125 coins (25 lines at 5 coins per line), which he showed in a screenshot. Assuming that the player's claim that the screenshot is real and that he was not playing with a bonus are true, this should mean that he wins the progressive jackpot which is advertised as being over $1 million. Instead the game paid him just 1450 coins ($2900).

The casino has tried to dismiss his complaint based on statements supposedly coming from Betsoft that either:

1. He can't win the jackpot because he was playing at a 50c coin size instead of the maximum $1. If that is the case, then why are the jackpots different at each coin size? This either means that the jackpots at each coin size below the maximum on each machine are false - which we know they aren't based on our statistics collected for the above games as Bovada and Slots.lv - or the Betsoft and/or casino reps don't know how their own games operate or they are just lying. We'll go with the latter.

2. OR that the five yachts were hit during a free spins round which does not allow the jackpot to be hit. This is not mentioned in game, on the paytable, or in any information about this game that I can find anywhere. If this game does operate in such a way that you can't win the jackpot during a free spins round, then it is a massive oversight, and some might argue fraudulent misrepresentation of how the game works, to not clearly state that anywhere.

We'll be issuing a formal warning and recommendation that people avoid all Betsoft games shortly. There is too much smoke for there not to be a fire.

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22 June 2016 - 6:48am
#53

Here is a screenshot of the non-paying jackpot win. Note the number of coins wagered is set to maximum (125), the jackpot amount (1m+ coins) and the amount paid for the win (only 1450 coins).

glam-life-no-jackpot-betcoin.jpg

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22 June 2016 - 11:31am
#54

Oh my that is just awful! I hope that the player will get paid the actual amount. But to be honest, I have never had trust in Betsoft and I have never understood why you need to place max bet to win jackpot, that seems shady for me.

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25 June 2016 - 2:57am
#55

You have probably seen it already but for the record here is our public statement on this:

Warning: avoid all Betsoft slots and casino games

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25 June 2016 - 7:30am
#56

Bovada and Slots.lv pulled ALL Betsoft games from their site.

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25 June 2016 - 5:04pm
#57

Ah, while I actually like some of the betsoft games, and I have never played with the intent of trying for a jackpot it is good news for the casinos to respond to these concerns in that way, BlackjackAA. I did just now, look at Ignition casino's list of current slots, and while I dont remember what betsoft games they had before, I think they may have also removed them.

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27 June 2016 - 12:10am
#58

That is good news, but actually I think it is only the Betsoft games with a progressive jackpot that they have removed. I can still see several if you set the filter to "3d slots" but none of them have jackpots.

I still would not play any of the others mind you.

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5 July 2016 - 4:21pm
#59

just got this email from bovada.,

Please note that we are performing a game library update today.
We'd like to apologize for any inconvenience this may cause as we recognize that a number of these games featured progressive jackpots that were very popular with our players. We are exploring options now to replace those jackpot games, please stay tuned for more details later this week.
Moving forward, the following games will no longer be available:
• 2 Million BC
• A Night in Paris
• After Night Falls
• Arrival
• At The Movies
• Aztec Treasures
• Back in Time
• Barbary Coast
• Black Gold
• Boomanji
• Common Draw Roulette
• Dr Jekyll & Mr Hyde
• Enchanted
• Event Horizon
• Fruit Zen
• Genie's Fortune
• Gladiator
• Gold Diggers
• Gypsy Rose
• Heist
• House of Fun
• It Came From Venus
• Lost
• Lucky 7
• Mad Scientist
• Madder Scientist
• Mamma Mia
• More Gold Diggin'
• Ned and his Friends
• Once Upon A Time
• Paco and the Popping Peppers
• Pinocchio
• Puppy Love Plus
• RockStar
• Rook's Revenge
• Royal Reels
• Safari Sam
• Seventh Heaven
• Skratcherz
• SlotFather
• SugarPop
• Sushi Bar
• The Curious Machine
• The Exterminator
• The True Sheriff
• True Illusions
• Under the Bed
• Under the Sea
• Viking Age
• Virtual RaceBook
• Weekend in Vegas
• Who Spun it?
Sincerely,

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5 July 2016 - 10:50pm
#60

I got the exact same email from Slots.lv. I can understand them taking down the progressive slots (to investigate I hope) but to remove the entire collection of Betsoft games from both sites sounds quite odd to me. The language also makes it kinda sound like Betsoft games won't be returning. Maybe a falling out between Bovada and Betsoft?

Not sure how I feel about casinos just discontinuing games with progressives that players have been feeding. Seems very sketchy. If this was Vegas they would have to load those progressive amounts to other, remaining games to be legal.

I do wonder how this was a problem seemingly unique to one (known) casino. Sites like Bitstarz are still offering Betsoft games, though I've noticed they offer them in different denomination values. I think Bitstarz' backend is Soft Swiss? Not sure what Bovada/Slots.lv is. Maybe that's relevant.

Overall, very nice work bringing this to the public's attention. I'm relatively new to online gaming but the Betsoft games have been good to me and Slots.lv not offering that anymore will be a big impact on my future decisions.