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pyBlackjackAA
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28 September 2015 - 9:21am

Questioning Betsoft Jackpots

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Hello guys!

I have been a long time lurker on this forum, and I just right now signed up to create this post.

This is a long post, so please take your time to read it all.
In essence, I believe we are being cheated by a software provider (not by a site in specific).

I've been gambling for a few years and I change site from time to time.
Recently Betsoft have been launching their games on different sites.
Honestly, cool games, nice graphics, I like them.

Then once I got stuck on one of their games, Greedy Goblins.
What you need to know is that Betsoft got different jackpots depending on the level you bet.

So, I tried to win on the lowest, and I went on for A LOT of spins. Seemed like you couldn't win.
I know that you think "Wow, such guy, thinks he can win a jackpot in a few hundred/thousand spins".

So I kept checking, no one is ever winning the JP.
For weeks, I've been checking the Jackpot levels on all bet levels and it makes no sense.

I was taking notes of different Jackpots at Bovada.
Then, June 11, 2015, Casinolisting made a post: http://www.casinolistings.com/news/2015/06/bovada-player-strikes-112425-...

This has nothing to do with Casinolistings really. A lot of different sites are posting the same news, so I guess it is coming straight from Bovada.
It says that someone hit the jackpot on Green goblins, bet 0.10 of a 112k win.

This is wrong, because: The Jackpot wasn't at 112k at that time (according to my stats), also, it kept growing after that date, and no one hit it.

So I made a more througly investigation.

Betsoft have some levels "locked". Yes that is right. There are some specific bet levels that are locked and you can't win, but a higher or lower bet level you can.
So it could be like this:
0.02 = Unlocked
0.05 = Locked
0.10 = Unlocked

You can make that conclusion of the fact of the levels of each Jackpot:
0.02 = 150
0.05 = 37372
0.10 = 1325

And that no one is winning 0.05 for months, but 0.02 and 0.10 is being taken all the time.

I can understand that all these numbers I pointed out earlier sound like BS, so if you don't buy that, then check this:

Betsoft has a game called "At the copa".
It has 3 different JP levels, like minor, medium and mega (they call it Suave, mediano, caliente).

As an example:
Mini = 80
Medium = 160
Mega = 310-320

Now, whatever or whichever site you check AND whatever bet limit you check, they will ALWAYS follow that rule:

Mini: 1
Medium: 2
Mega: 3

If it was possible to win these jackpots, then at least 1, 2 or 3 would not keep in the same jackpot level rhythm.

Lets say it was 80;160;310.
And someone just won 160.
Then it would be 80;120;310.

But it is never like that, it is always keeping the same format.

So my conclusion is, no one has ever won At The Copa.

I believe that this is not completely fair, possibly misconfiguration by Betsoft.

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auCL-Ed
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28 September 2015 - 10:54pm
#1

Before I get to Greedy Goblins, I'll explain At the Copa quickly first because I think you have misunderstood how it works. When you see a jackpot that scales with the coin size exactly, then there is basically just one big jackpot. So when a player wins it at any coin size, the total jackpot decreases by the amount they won, then the jackpot at each coin size is re-scaled to whatever jackpot is left.

For example, if the jackpot levels corresponding to each coin size are like this:
1c: 80, 2c: 160, 4c: 320, 10c: 800

Then there is really only one 800 coin jackpot pool. If someone wins the 2c coin size jackpot for 160 coins, the total jackpot decreases by 160 coins to 640 and the jackpot would be re-scaled like so:
1c: 64, 2c: 128, 4c: 256, 10c: 640

There are several jackpot providers that run their jackpots like this and the idea is that everyone has the exact same chance to win the jackpot, but you get more if you wager more. Other providers do it differently - some make it so you can only win the jackpot at max bet with the biggest coin size. Or some make it so the jackpot is the same no matter the coin size, but your chance of winning is greater if you bet more.

One that comes to mind that scales the jackpots to coin size is Virtue Fusion. And in fact last week someone won Cleopatra's Chest jackpot in exactly this way. You can see the drop from the top is only about one third of the total, which suggests that whoever won it was not playing at the biggest coin size.
http://www.casinolistings.com/jackpots/virtue-fusion/cleopatras-chest-ja...

cleopatras-chest-partial-win.png

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28 September 2015 - 11:05pm
#2

Now as for Greedy Goblins, I doubt very much that a level is "locked". But what it does show is that the jackpots on this game are separate for each coin size. If the 5c jackpot has been rising for a long time while the others have been won, it is just random chance. But it does suggest that if you care about maximising your RTP you could pick the coin size which has the jackpot that is the biggest multiple of your coin size. So in your example there is far more value in playing the 5c jackpot than the 1c or 10c, at least until it is won and resets.

As for the big win mystery, I'll have to get back to you on that one after I look into it. Unfortunately we have not been tracking it at Bovada with our jackpot tracker. I can see the following values in their feed at the moment which don't really help either way:

Greedy Goblins: 189,569.71
Greedy Goblins Mobile: 105,702.19
Greedy Goblins Android: 63,478.83

I have no idea why they would have separate values for different devices, and isn't Android mobile too? Maybe "mobile" means Apple devices? Maybe that is why we aren't tracking it. Also it might explain why it does not appear to have been won when you look at the game - it might have been one of the device-specific jackpots that was won (probably Android since it is the lowest currently). I'll see if I can find out for you.

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28 September 2015 - 11:26pm
#3

Taking a look at the Greedy Goblin Jackpot on my computer and mobile I got the following different jackpots:

PC
$377,902.81

Mobile:
$51,816.06 on 50 cents
$40,425.60 on 25 cents
$70,147.63 on the 10 cents
$32,813.50 on the 5 cents
$52,188 on 2 cents

That was with the max 5 coins per line. It is interesting that it scales like that for sure.

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28 September 2015 - 11:35pm
#4

So you can't change the coin size on your PC? And what kind of mobile do you have?

It is interesting that none of that matches with the jackpot feed that we have, which probably explains why we aren't recording it!

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pyBlackjackAA
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29 September 2015 - 12:10am
#5

Thank you for clearing up the At The Copa.

When it comes to Greedy Goblins, I do think it is locked.
It seems Betsoft have a mishabit of locking some jackpots.

Check this out: https://casino.bovada.lv/3d-slots/good-girl-bad-girl?mode=practice

On 0.10: Good is 406 right now. Bad is 328326.79. So bad seems to be locked.
If you go down to 0.02: good is 99.56 and bad is 328.50. So that's how it normally is. Bad is seeding at more or less twice the size as good, so it should not reach such a high level as 328326.

If you go through the different bets you clearly see that it is locked.
Good and bad jackpots are won several times a day except for on the locked ones where no one wins.

So if they "accidentally" lock on Good Girl Bad Girl, I think they might lock others too.
When it comes to the news article, I thought I read it on this site, but I can not say for sure I did.
I googled a bit and it seems like a lot of different sites posted the same story at the same time: https://casinoslots.net/news/jul-2015/bovadas-greedy-goblins-slot-hits-a...

Now, I didn't check Mobile or Android at the time, so I can not say to 100% that it is fake, but it is what I believe.

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pyBlackjackAA
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29 September 2015 - 12:11am
#6
CL-Ed wrote:

So you can't change the coin size on your PC? And what kind of mobile do you have?

It is interesting that none of that matches with the jackpot feed that we have, which probably explains why we aren't recording it!

Yes, you can change coin size on PC, Android and Mobile.

Edit:
Also, all levels are unique and have their own jackpot.
So it doesn't scale.

Separate jackpot per each bet level, and also per each "entry" (PC, Mobile, Android).

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29 September 2015 - 12:48am
#7

Ah. You can't read anything into the value of jackpots on games in free play mode. Many jackpot games can't be played in free play, and those that can often have completely different jackpots, or they are unable to be won or blank. They are meaningless.

We have the same game in free play here and you can play around with the coin sizes to see how the jackpot changes. I noted that you have to be the max 5 coins per line to qualify for the jackpot.
http://www.casinolistings.com/games/betsoft/free-greedy-goblins-slot-mac...

That story you linked to is about a guy winning a huge amount on a bonus or free spins round, not a jackpot.

Quote:

The winning combination came from the bonus feature, and it was the result of several payouts in a row instead of a single overwhelming jackpot. A total of $183,600 was won in this feature, and that gave Alexander D. his second major payout in about three weeks.

While it says it was his 2nd major win in about 3 weeks, the name Alexander doesn't match with our article about the jackpot winner named Juline.

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pyBlackjackAA
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29 September 2015 - 4:11am
#8

I mixed the stories, my bad.

Yes I agree, normally when you play on fun money you can't win the jackpot or the settings are not completely equal to the real money.
However, I have never seen that to be the case on Betsoft, they mimic the game completely.

I have attached 3 photos of real money play, where you can see that the bad level is locked.

Good:
0.02: Unlocked
0.05: Unlocked
0.10: Unlocked

Bad:
0.02: Unlocked
0.05: Locked
0.10: Locked

real_money_0.02.png
real_money_0.05.png
real_money_0.10.png
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29 September 2015 - 5:03am
#9

It is odd, but all it shows is that the Bad Girl jackpot has not been won for a long time. You also have to consider that there would be far more players betting the minimum coin size than the maximum, which would result in the smaller coin jackpots being won more often. I don't think that based on the values you can infer that it is unable to be won. I took a look through the paytable of the game to see if there was any information about the relative chance of winning the Good vs Bad jackpot. Maybe they aren't equally as likely to be won. But sadly there is no information that would help us out in that respect.

I'm looking into whether we can get a source feed to track this game at all its different levels at a casino. That way we might be able to get a better idea of how often each jackpot level is won.

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29 September 2015 - 2:26pm
#10
CL-Ed wrote:

So you can't change the coin size on your PC? And what kind of mobile do you have?

It is interesting that none of that matches with the jackpot feed that we have, which probably explains why we aren't recording it!

No, I couldn't change the size but I think that's the fact that there's 35 cents in my account. I used an iPhone to access the games.

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29 September 2015 - 3:49pm
#11
barbadosslim93 wrote:

No, I couldn't change the size but I think that's the fact that there's 35 cents in my account. I used an iPhone to access the games.

Yeah, it's due to the fact that you can't change bet if you don't have enough credits.

This is one of my favorite games on Betsoft so I know it pretty well.
Both Good and Bad have about the same chance of getting taken.
Most of the levels are correct but once in a while they have these ridiculous high bad jackpots
Fun and Real money are identical to the fact that when it is "locked" on fun it is locked on real.

I have been playing this game on and off for a few months so I don't have any real saved data that you could trust. And I don't know what else to provide to show you that it is misconfigured.

By playing Mobile or Android for example, you can see that the Bad levels are not locked.

I do understand that it sounds a bit paranoid, but I hope you could look past that for this time.

Let's say this:
There are these levels: 0.02, 0.05, 0.10, 0.25
They are having almost the same amount of traffic
For the past year Bad:
0.02: Won 5 times a day
0.05: Never taken
0.10. Never taken
0.25: Won twice a day

Doesn't that stat look strange?

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30 September 2015 - 1:27am
#12

It agree does look odd, but random numbers can do that.

I haven't had any luck with a feed. All the Betsoft ones we have just provide a single number and in some cases it appears to be the total of all the coin size jackpots added together which is obviously bogus. I have been able to work out how the game itself gets the updated values while you play but it remains to be seen whether I can simulate a game so that a scraper can automatically record those values. I'm trying but the short answer is that it is tricky and possibly unworkable.

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2 October 2015 - 8:28am
#13

It took a fair bit of stuffing around but I eventually worked out how to record the jackpot values at each coin size for the Betsoft games. So we have started recording them at Bovada and Slots.lv so far. Hopefully there will be more to come. You can keep an eye on them here:
http://www.casinolistings.com/jackpots/betsoft

There are some interesting numbers there. Often it looks as if it can pay to play at a lower stake as the 2c or 5c jackpot can be bigger than the $1 jackpot on the same game. So its well worth keeping an eye on them before you play.

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pyBlackjackAA
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2 October 2015 - 5:16pm
#14

Wow great work!!

Any idea if this will be available for Mobile or Android?

I still think that some of them are locked though, so don't go all-in on these Joking

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3 October 2015 - 6:54am
#15

I haven't looked into mobile or Android yet. In fact I forgot all about that and the way they are different. I've never come across a game with a separate mobile vs desktop jackpot before.

The debugging required to set it up needs to be done on a computer so it will probably take a bit of work trying to fool the site into thinking its serving a mobile device so we get the right game sent to us.

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26 October 2015 - 12:41am
#16

An update on this. I haven't made any progress on the mobile jackpots. However the numbers on the regular ones are very interesting.

I agree that the data does look strange, especially the 10c coin size jackpot which we can see has been won 4 times already at a much lower level during the same period at slots.lv which is Bovada's sister casino.
i.e. Bad Girl 10c Bovada vs Bad Girl 10c Slots.lv

Things I have looked at and considered:

1. Volume of play at Bovada vs Slots.lv.
- Bad Girl 2c Bovada vs Bad Girl 2c Slots.lv: obviously Bovada gets loads more play.
- Bad Girl 5c Bovada vs Bad Girl 5c Slots.lv: while it has not been won at Bovada over the time period, the jackpot has risen over $8000 while at Slots.lv it has risen cumulatively between wins around $1900.

Conclusion: there is a higher volume of play at Bovada on this jackpot.

2. Perhaps the chance of winning the Good vs Bad jackpot is different.
Compare these two graphs of the 2c jackpots on the game, both at Bovada:
Good Girl 2c Bovada vs Bad Girl 2c Bovada

From that we can tell a couple of things: the Good jackpot is won more often in the same period of time, and the seed or reset values of the jackpots is different ($75 for Good, $150 for Bad). It could be that people play Good mode more, but the different seed values suggests that they probably are not equal.

Conclusion: any comparison of the Good vs Bad jackpots is irrelevant.

3. How was the jackpot funded? Looking at the numbers now doesn't tell you this as it presents only a snapshot. As we were not monitoring the game a year ago for example we can't tell if the jackpot has been rising the whole time or whether it was seeded with a large amount, perhaps from other jackpot games that were retired.

4. Perhaps not many people play at the higher coin sizes. The game has 15 lines and to win the jackpot you need to be betting max which is 5 coins per line. Assuming the majority of people play all 15 lines, then the bet per spin at each coin size is: 2c: $1.50, 5c: $3.75, 10c: $7.50, 25c: $18.75, 50c: $37.50, $1: $75. It is double that cost if you play both good and bad modes at once which is the default setting. So it is a very expensive game if you are trying to win the jackpot.

I would expect that anything above 5c is beyond most players' budgets based on those numbers. However we can still see the jackpot amounts of the higher coin sizes going up each day, and the same coin sizes on the same jackpot at slots.lv are being won. Both of which suggests that people are indeed playing them.

But what I don't know is how each jackpot goes up. i.e. does the jackpot only increase when players are playing in that specific good/bad mode, or does it go up no matter whether players are playing good or bad or both? Maybe players who don't play max coins still contribute to the jackpot, even though they can't win it?

I still don't think that you can come to the conclusion that the jackpot is "locked" or unable to be won. Why would a reputable site like Bovada do it at one of their sites but not the other? But I do agree that it looks odd and given the story that came out last week about Sheriff Gaming and their rigged jackpots, it is worth investigating.

We're trying to get in contact with someone from Bovada and/or Betsoft to see if we can get some more information on this to fill in the blanks and answer some of those questions.

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11 November 2015 - 3:27pm
#17

Any news on this?

I think that they are locked, not by intention but by mistake, it has happened before.

Yes, you contribute even though you are not max betting.
And if you choose one side, you only contribute to that side.
Playing both contributes to both.

Really looking forward to hear that they say!

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11 November 2015 - 10:07pm
#18

I'm not sure if we have heard back about it. I'll follow up on it.

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13 February 2016 - 11:15pm
#19

I'm issuing a warning for everyone who wants to play on Bovada!

Bovada has now locked all jackpots since 1.5 days ago.

https://www.casinolistings.com/jackpots/betsoft/good-girl-jackpot?j=1009

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14 February 2016 - 10:31pm
#20

I realise we never posted the resolution in this thread, though I did speak to BlackjackAA via private message. All our inquires to Betsoft were ignored. Bodog / Bovada more or less said "its the luck of the draw" which is pretty much all they can say unless they want to admit that the jackpots are somehow controlled.

As for the jackpots not updating, we'll have to check if its a problem with our feed. As I recall we had to simulate a login to the site to be able to read the feed, so its possible that process is no longer working.

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14 February 2016 - 10:32pm
#21

Yes I can see a load of errors in our log, so I suspect the problem is on our side this time, not theirs.

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15 February 2016 - 12:31pm
#22

Yes, your site had problems updating, but the fact still remains that they now have locked all of them.

Check the graph: https://www.casinolistings.com/jackpots/betsoft/good-girl-jackpot?j=1009 .

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15 February 2016 - 11:32pm
#23

The login looks to be working again and we're recording values again.

That graph may be misleading. As the login wasn't working for a couple of days, we didn't record any new values during that time. When the graphing software plots the graph it joins one point to another, so it is possible that the graph rose and fell a couple of times during that period when we couldn't login and we missed it. As to why it has risen so much higher than it has before - lets wait and see the data for another day or two. Casinos sometimes take another progressive game out of circulation and transfer the funds in its jackpot over to other jackpots so that players don't lose their contributions. This can cause a jackpot to jump up unexpectedly. If we see the jackpot won then go back to its previous pattern then that is the most likely explanation. If it doesn't, then the game must have been changed.

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16 February 2016 - 2:06am
#24

Hi!

I understand that since it stopped tracking you might get this strange behavior.
But that it happened, at the same time, to only the "suspected unlocked ones", at the same time, that chance is too low.
2c: https://www.casinolistings.com/jackpots/betsoft/good-girl-jackpot?j=1009 - Now locked (Not before)
2c Bad: https://www.casinolistings.com/jackpots/betsoft/bad-girl-jackpot?j=1015 - Now locked (Not before)
5c: Good: https://www.casinolistings.com/jackpots/betsoft/good-girl-jackpot?j=1010 - Now locked (Not before)
10c: https://www.casinolistings.com/jackpots/betsoft/good-girl-jackpot?j=1011 - Now locked (Not before)

All of them, AT THE SAME TIME, started to increase and none got hit after that specific time period.

This clearly shows that the games are configurable on demand of the casino's themselves.

I will now give up and leave this discussion, since it feels worthless to continue this discussion..
I'm not saying you are defending them CL-Ed, not at all. I'm just saying they are getting the benefit of the doubt, too the unlimited extent.

You can clearly see by the pattern from before that it didn't get taken, and that it is continuously growing.

This forum could be THE forum to call them out, it's all depending on you CL-Ed.

I don't even play there, so I actually don't have the time anymore to investigate and complain about this.

Good luck everyone!

Keep on spinning on Bovada, good luck...

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16 February 2016 - 5:06am
#25

I understand your frustration. I am not defending them at all. I just want to make sure that we don't make a mistake based on some bad data. You have to have all your ducks in a row before accusing companies of being at the least unethical, if not criminal.

We've had the tracker going on them for a few months now, so we have a good set of long term data. I may be able to write a one off program that graphs the games for the entire period we have been tracking them, instead of our standard last 60 days or so. This would give a good visual overview of the entire period.

The way those graphs you cited are continuing to rise now suggests to me that the game and the chances of winning have been changed - eg. Good Girl 2c is now at $1870, while the previous highest win was $343. It has also been longer than the average time between wins since the last win. We can't say for sure that they can be locked so no-one can possibly win, but it certainly looks as if the chance of winning can change over time at the same casino, and between different casinos. This suggests a couple of explanations:

1. The game is buggy and doesn't work as designed, or
2. The game is configurable and the chance of winning the jackpot can be altered.

If option 2 is the case, there's no way to tell whether the casino is in control of that or Betsoft, seeing as neither is cooperating when we ask questions. Option 1 may be true, but we have seen the same thing on other Betsoft games, suggesting a single bug that affects all their jackpot games, which I suspect is unlikely.

It is certainly enough for me to say that I would not play the games until there is an acceptable explanation provided by either Bodog or Betsoft. I'll try to follow up again with them but if something shady is going on, they aren't going to come out and admit it. Perhaps someone working at Betsoft might want to leak some data our way (privacy guaranteed)...

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pyBlackjackAA
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26 February 2016 - 12:15am
#26

Carry on people, nothing to see here.
Nothing fishy is going on, it's completely possible since it's random (the response of support when questioning them).

move_on_people.png
auCL-Ed
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26 February 2016 - 6:19am
#27

As promised, I wrote some code on our jackpot grapher to allow it to pick up data from further back by using our archived data. It normally gets archived off to a different table after 60 days so that the graphs don't take too long to draw as there are millions of recorded values. This means we can see the entire time we have had these jackpots tracked at Bovada and Slots.lv.

Here are the first batch of 2c coin size jackpots. I will do the others over the weekend. You can clearly see that something has changed drastically on February 12 or 13, and at the very least these jackpots now appear to be far harder to win than they were before (if not impossible).

betsoft-good-girl-2c-bovada.png
betsoft-good-girl-2c-slotslv.png
betsoft-bad-girl-2c-bovada.png
betsoft-bad-girl-2c-slotslv.png

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auCL-Ed
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27 February 2016 - 10:38pm
#28

These are the 5c jackpots. While the Good Girl jackpots look similar between casinos and seem to exhibit the same recent behaviour as the 2c jackpots in my last post, the Bad Girl 5c jackpot at Bovada does not fit the same "pattern" as Slots.lv. While the jackpot was won 16 times for an average of just over $800 in that time at Slots.lv, it wasn't won once at Bovada despite experiencing a much higher number of plays, with the jackpot climbing to above $180,000. There is simply no way that this game has the same chance of being won at the same coin size at these two casinos.

betsoft-good-girl-5c-bovada.png
betsoft-good-girl-5c-slotslv.png
betsoft-bad-girl-5c-bovada.png
betsoft-bad-girl-5c-slotslv.png

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auCL-Ed
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27 February 2016 - 10:43pm
#29

And now the 10c jackpots which exhibit the same anomalies as the 5c jackpots. Bad Girl 25c was won 16 times at Slots.lv while it was not won once at Bovada, despite a higher volume of play.

betsoft-good-girl-10c-bovada.png
betsoft-good-girl-10c-slotslv.png
betsoft-bad-girl-10c-bovada.png
betsoft-bad-girl-10c-slotslv.png

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auCL-Ed
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27 February 2016 - 10:50pm
#30

Now the 25c jackpots. Same again.

betsoft-good-girl-25c-bovada.png
betsoft-good-girl-25c-slotslv.png
betsoft-bad-girl-25c-bovada.png
betsoft-bad-girl-25c-slotslv.png

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